Cancel Your SaaS Stack and Build Your Own

Chris DuBois02

All right. So what software subscriptions did you cancel after building Diviner One?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency08

Well, I kind of tried to cancel all of them. I didn't I didn't totally succeed. I still have a Google Drive subscription. I did actually set up a home server with like a Google Drive alternative, but I sort of, you know, in the AI area era have become more and more sour on Silicon Valley and what how they do things and where all the money goes. And so for a while I was just like, well, now that I can build my own software, like why are that am I paying these companies? You know, like what have these companies ever really done for me? And you know, and I actually had the time because I just left the agency that I was running with my brother. So I was like, okay, I'm just gonna dig in and build everything I could possibly need. And and it was really fun. And and I pretty much did it. I would say that like it's a lot of work. AI is fast. But it's not so fast that it didn't take like a year of my life to build all this stuff.

Chris DuBois01:10

Yep. Yeah. And I think you've run like a much harder path on this. So actually recently, like past two weeks, I had AI go through like my credit card statements and stuff just to be like what should I cut that I could be using? And so like I pulled my entire website off HubSpot, so that I had more control over it. And that's all built in Verse L or Versal, however that's said.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency01:30

Yep.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency01:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris DuBois01:35

but then I I realized like, hey, I'm paying for testimonial.two, and that's another 400 bucks a year, and all it's doing is collecting my testimonials. so I started pulling all those. Now I'm saving like thousands a year on stuff that I have more control over. But I've I'm the only one using these tools for myself. Like I built them for me, so I don't have to worry about the security and how do I get someone else's instance set up and their logins and all of this. How do like I mean that's a challenge in itself. How'd you do that?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency01:48

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency01:55

Right.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency02:03

That is that's the hardest that's the hardest part. And I sort of started building with that in mind originally, you know, that other people are gonna use these apps and that, you know, the security and the authentication and making sure that people aren't gonna, you know, hack it or it's not gonna, you blow up if someone else uses it. all those problems do start compounding and suddenly you've built this elaborate thing that like you have to maintain and you're like, I'm like tech support now too.

Chris DuBois02:32

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency02:33

So it's it's yeah, it's a lot. It was, you know, I I think that if I had been in any other point in my life, I don't know if I would have had the time and the energy to do it. So I do think the opportunity for a lot of agencies is to like there's some crazy person out there like me that's building everything that you need. And you can get it for like a fraction of the price that you can paying for HubSpot and SEM Rush and you know, all these subscriptions. And agencies have huge bills, you know. I mean, the amount of money that we spent on tools at my last agency was ridiculous, thousands of dollars every month. And like you don't really have to pay that anymore. But it does take work to find what you need and to find someone that's gonna support you. And so the opportunity is there, but I know that a lot of agency owners are like, when am I gonna find time to do that? You know.

Chris DuBois03:04

So many. Yeah.

Chris DuBois03:27

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it was twenty nineteen. I was at the HubSpot's partner day at inbound and they pulled up a slide that showed like the average small business had like 70 subscriptions to different tools. And I like I mean, I was just mind blown like 70 for a small business. and like and I mean I can see it in my household, like just how many T V subscriptions, right? Like different streaming services we have. It's like, those things, yeah, they do pile up just pretty quick.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency03:41

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency03:52

Yeah.

Chris DuBois03:55

Right. When every team is using something different. And but then I think there's it's I don't know, it's like a a dichotomy of like, okay, so I can pay or I can go build. The issue with building is that yeah, it does take a ton of time to be able to get this. And do you do you have the ability to actually create something that works and like you want to be able to use this and trust that you know your clients can be on it and and different things like that. I guess. W what are what were like the the primary considerations as you went into building this for man, I don't even know how to like map like like you needed to map this out, right? Full roadmap for

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency04:35

Well, I I'll tell you how I started is that so my one of the things that when I was running the agency with my brother, that was always sort of a challenge was getting reviews from clients. And we built a s we built just a sort of an informal system for getting reviews that was like we would pre-write the review, we would send them Links would give them different options of things that they could say and just like lay it all out for them. And that's how we would get reviews because just asking would never work. And you had to follow up. And I had an idea for creating some software that would help with that. So that's how I started building Diviner One. And so it's like, hey, I created this thing. when I realized that you know, building an app and marketing it is Two two huge different tasks. I started using the app with my clients. And as I was doing that, I was like, why just add this and it's gonna make this thing easier? And and why am I paying for HubSpot if I could just put a CRM in with the review tools? So I just started sort of building tools as I needed them for clients. And and now all my clients use the software, and it's kind of a win. Either way, like I I still haven't marketed this app. Like the only I've had clients that lee have not been able to afford my fees and then they stay on the app. but other than that, you know, a few people have signed up who randomly found it. But for the most part, it's sort of like my marketing tool for my agency. And if someday it becomes something that other people want, that's that's awesome too. I mean, other I I did build it so other agencies could use it. And at some point I probably will market to other agencies that may be interested in it. but but yeah, I mean, I think that the key for me was like I need to make value for myself and therefore it's not gonna be a loss if I never get around to marketing it or if people don't like it or whatever. I just want to make my life easier. The second bonus is that I don't have to pay these companies that, you know, are all venture capital funded and sort of contributing to the problem. And and yeah, you know, maybe I could be

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency06:58

You know, like I said, like some agency who doesn't have time to build the whole system. Maybe they like my system. I don't know.

Chris DuBois07:03

Yeah. no, there's I had a theory when when I was a agency CEO that like everyone running an agency at some point is like, man, I wish I just could be a tech founder instead. Like cause life would be so much easier if I just had tech. we built a software for creating websites on HubSpot pretty quickly. I've had some other clients who built other tools. actually I built one now in my coaching practice for

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency07:15

Yep.

Chris DuBois07:32

just how do we run marketing tests and to be able to track everything. but I feel like they all come out of something that it's like, I needed this for my business. And so now I like we've we're following that that trail here where like I couldn't track a lot of my my clients like marketing. Like, are you you you told me you were doing LinkedIn marketing, but you only did one post last week. So like I we're not really gonna hit our results. Like I need to be able to see everything you're doing. And that builds up over time.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency07:35

Mm-hmm.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency07:55

Ready.

Chris DuBois08:01

but like, and so like for my tool, I it has built up quite a bit just like for the things that I want to track within marketing. But like when I look at Diviner One, it's like you have a lot of that they're all like interconnected, like they all fit in this crazy Venn diagram, like to to create this one perfect platform. has it been like a okay, well, now I need this, so like here's the next thing to build. Now I need this, or

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency08:18

Yeah.

Chris DuBois08:28

It is it just like a a this is everything that you would need in order to achieve like this objective? And so let me just work all of those pieces now and then we'll move to something else.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency08:36

A lot I mean, so I'll say I like I was working on it every day for, you know, like a year and and then then I found the next project. and now the way that I use it, the way that I develop it is I run up against something is I I'm like, I need it to do this, so now I'm gonna build it so it does that. Or, you know, I have a client that's you know, like, how come it doesn't work this way? And like, I can make it work that way.

Chris DuBois08:47

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency09:02

So now it's more driven by you know, need, necessity and stuff like that. And it's actually interesting. The other app that I built, which is called Crystal, and it's for managing AI agents. I have a thousand people have downloaded it. So I have users now that are like texting me and messaging me and being like, this thing doesn't work and that thing doesn't work. And that's actually a much better experience than just like d developing something all by yourself.

Chris DuBois09:30

Yeah. Right.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency09:32

so I definitely like, you know, I would caution against getting s stuck like I did, like building something by myself for a year. I'm glad that it turned out into something I can use, but like it is kind of a dangerous place to be in because it's not tested against anything besides your own imagination.

Chris DuBois09:52

Yeah. And so I imagine that's the it's like the sooner you can get some clients on it and to just have them testing because like every user is gonna interact a little differently. and actually now even Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency10:02

Yep. Yeah, there's no way I can test everything that I've I've built. So the only way for me to make it like sustainable for other people is for them to tell me what's wrong with it.

Chris DuBois10:13

Right. yeah, I happen to have one client who's like, well, I have multiple clients who are very like AI centric, but I have one who's like he just loves testing things, period. And so anytime I build something, I don't even have to ask. He just like he sees there's something new and he goes and like pokes around and in it and tells me everything that's wrong. yeah, mostly all the stuff that's wrong. He happily shares all that. It's a good thing I don't have an ego when it comes to it. but but yeah, going back to so now, yeah, running an agency.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency10:35

Ha ha ha

Chris DuBois10:43

versus running like a a tech company, right? And and I say that as just like in sell selling a tool, like selling a a platform rather and selling our time. it is a big jump. what's been the the largest shift for you to be able to do it?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency10:47

Mm-hmm.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency10:51

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency11:00

Well, I mean, I'm still, you know, my main income is still, you know, agency client work. I mean, I'm making some income from the the the crystal software that I built, but not a lot. I think that the you know, really the the difference is customer customer client relationship. you know, you I have you have a lot the responsibility is different. between like a agency retainer and like a customer, you know, like you don't have to check in with them on a a regular basis. You know, you hope that they're doing okay and they contact you. you know, so there's something appealing to it because it's it's not something that I'm used to. Like I, you know, the getting the, you know, the anxiety before the like the client presentation stuff, you know, like having a break from that. is nice. I still haven't done much of that since I've left my main agency. So the, you know, and I remember going into the like boardrooms and you know, with big paper decks and stuff like that, you know, like that stuff is fun and exciting sometimes, but also it's just like, my god, I have to like go act like an adult in front of people who might be wearing suits. So There's something a little antisocial about you know, building your own software, which you know, you may like or dislike. I think that the you know, the danger for me is that I end up cutting myself off from humans and really, you know, you need to be interacting with humans if you wanna be successful.

Chris DuBois12:45

Yep. The it's something that I do like as a positioning coach is the ability to be providing services, but then when you have software that you can add on top of this, like that it fits into your delivery model, it fits into your methodology, your your IP, like all of this in order to make you stand out more as a differentiator. what are your thoughts on like do you think more agencies are going to be finding these opportunities moving forward?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency13:03

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency13:13

Yeah, one I I mean what I kind of theorize at one point I said what what did I call it? I said that they were they're gonna change what SaaS stands for. You know, it's like software as a service. And I think I said, what did I say? Anyway, but the the the the basic idea was that like tech companies are gonna have to become more service oriented. Because it's not so special that you have an app anymore. if you want to keep customers, then you're gonna have to be more involved with them. So, in a way, I think that you know, going from you know, into a hybrid model now is probably not a bad move. You know, like it is like it is a little bit easier for me to sell to people when I say, like, not only can I you know, consult and help you execute, but I built software in this space. I know how it works. You know, it does add, I think, to credibility and expertise and feels like something extra that they might not be getting from someone else.

Chris DuBois14:18

So I don't know. I don't know if the word you were looking for was just service as a software instead of just inverting those. But I I had someone on LinkedIn basically I don't know the guy, never chatted with him after this either. But he basically said, Hey, if you're such a successful coach, why don't you just run your own agency? And I was like, Well, I don't want to deal with clients. So that's basically like I don't like agency clients are very different than coaching clients. but it got me thinking, like, well, what if

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency14:26

Yeah, yeah.

Chris DuBois14:47

I could do this without needing to interact with clients. And so I I built essentially a a little mini AI agency that would run SEO for local businesses to just help them and onboarded a client to it, all like automated. So like I had very little impact. They it started working. They, you know, we're getting content out. They were approving it. I didn't really have to talk to them. and then things got busier on the coaching side. I'm like, okay, well, I checked that box, so I can let me move on. But

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency15:04

Yeah.

Chris DuBois15:15

If someone wants to purchase that software from me, let me know in the comments. We'll we'll send it over. But but like I do think it's possible. Like I you know, and there was like some deliberate thought where who tech companies are all about AI, right? They're they're pretty sure giving their intern AI means they're fully equipped and they're ready to go versus small mom and pop shop that probably does hasn't even opened chat GPT yet. It's like I if I bring AI to them, there's like a much longer

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency15:18

Ha ha

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency15:40

Yeah.

Chris DuBois15:44

kind of period of of being able to work with them before they catch on like, I can do some of this myself. but yeah, it was an interesting exercise anyways.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency15:52

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's so interesting how I mean everything is is changing. I mean, I think a lot of I see a lot of changes for the positive as well. but you know, the the the challenges facing small businesses are very high, you know, and that it I think higher than they have been in my career. And I think that that puts pressure on agencies, that puts, you know, like they want more. for less and they want, you know, and they don't want to s necessarily spend the time to, you know, build a relationship. And that's, you know, that's where people like you and me become like, do I really want to work with these people? Because you know, they're they're setting those expectations and keeping those people happy when it's you know they don't realize how foundational the work needs to be and actually to actually be successful that they can't just pay

Chris DuBois16:37

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency16:49

you know, an SEO agency five hundred bucks a month and suddenly show up at the top of Google that it's much more complicated and and they have to put in a lot more work than they think they do. And

Chris DuBois17:01

Right. Yeah, that I mean that's it's like people skip the the thought process of just realizing you could do this yourself, but then couldn't your competitors all do this themselves? And so like yes, you will get the same exact result as everybody else. Like, I had a a copywriting client that she was running a a copywriting agency and she came to me and said basically that like a lot of her clients were saying, couldn't you do this? cheaper with AI. And it's like I mean so we had to build the argument of like why and explain it to the client and find the right thing. But like if someone had brought me that question, I would have been like, Yeah, we don't need to work together. We're good. Like So yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency17:35

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency17:40

Yeah, exactly. I know. I know well, the you know, my brother's agency, you know, people are asking him that qu you know, they're primarily brand focused. So that like are like, well, could couldn't you just do that with AI? Or or sometimes the clients will bring in work that they've produced with AI now, you know, like the the managing those sorts of expectations is so difficult. Especially when they don't have a lot of experience with it, because you know, like I work with AI every day and I know that like the it's not a time savings always, you know, like you might gain some extra ability to do things that maybe you couldn't do before. you might be able to make something look nicer than you were b before with these new tools, but the time and the thinking and the strategy and like those things don't like get faster, you know.

Chris DuBois18:34

Yeah. No, a hundred percent. the I did hear I don't know what the term Javon's paradox. I need to research this guy some more, but is this idea that the more efficient we get with using a resource, the assumption is that then we'll use less of that resource because we're more efficient. But in actuality, because we're more efficient with it, we use it more because we're like it's more accessible to people and everything.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency19:00

Right.

Chris DuBois19:01

And so there's an idea that because AI has made like if we use eight to agencies as a resource and stuff like we can become more efficient because of all these things. but I actually think we're gonna be using agencies more because like of everything you just said, right? Where it's you're not actually gonna be saving time or getting better results. Like you're still gonna need that expert who goes in and understands how to do this, who has the taste, who has all of those other, you know, the skills, the strategy, the reps of doing this to be able to get results.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency19:32

The biggest mistake we all make is asking AI to do something in an area where we don't have expertise. That's when it screws up. And like it's the easy I do it all the time. You know what I mean? Like some development task. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, but that sounds right. Go ahead and do it. You know. And and it bites me all the time. Even, you know, like I

Chris DuBois19:50

Yeah. Yes. Definitely do that. Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency19:58

Done a couple of times like creating reports like for clients where I'm like, I'll just have Claude build it. And I look at it, I'm like, this is amazing, you know. And then I'm about to present it to the client. I'm like, what the hell is this? You know? so it's like I think everybody is falling for that. And, you know, people we're wising up. You know, you're hearing these stories about people like. you know, like reading from teleprompters that Claude wrote or, you know, like presenting legal arguments that like came from Chat GPT or whatever. And like it can be pretty disastrous.

Chris DuBois20:32

Right. yeah, I think even I I have a very built out clawed code system. I call it my chiefest stuff. And I mean this thing it has all my contacts for everything. Like I I don't get hallucinations from it, which is awesome, because it it's very clear on the contacts for everything. And but even if I have a builder report that I've had it build 20 times at this point and I've Every time I iterate with it and I keep training it on like this is the best version of this one, add it to your log so that we have another example of what good looks like. I still have to look at Like it's still I did one today that I I read and I was like, why would you even say this? Like, and I don't know if it's just because it then I'm gonna it knows I'm going to give it corrections and so token costs are keep going up. I don't know if that's played into it or at all, but yeah, it's like you want to just get it done.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency21:05

Yep. Yep.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency21:12

I know.

Chris DuBois21:26

And like and when you see it initially, you're like, All right, this is great. but it's just lulled you in some false sense of security.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency21:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a magic trick. You know, I mean, that's the thing is that like like a client types in, like, build me a logo and like this thing comes up that looks amazing if you don't think about it. And so they're like, that took me 10 seconds. I'm gonna go, you know, hey, agency, like, do this in like a day for me, you know. And then the agency's like, that's not gonna work. because that thing that was produced is like

Chris DuBois21:43

Right. Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency22:00

basically a simulation of a logo. Like logos involve bunches of people getting together and having decisions and meetings and talking through things and looking at your brand values and aligning everything so it works. and in the end, the logos that ChatGPT ca you know created and the one that took you six months to create, like the they don't if you just put them in a vacuum and look at them, they look pretty similar. But one of them's gonna work and one of them's not.

Chris DuBois22:27

Right. Yeah. So let's let's shift gear here because I do want to talk about you leaving Murmur and just like that that's a process, right? For I I wasn't even a partial owner or anything of the agency I left. And it was still like we had a very long runway of like, all right, this is how I'm gonna depart to make sure it doesn't impact the company and the clients. What was that like for you?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency22:35

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency22:42

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency22:50

Yep. I was extremely hard. It was also my brother, you know. it I mean we actually we actually went to therapy about it. Like there were lots of hot emotions involved. and you know, like we just you know, we had different sort of visions and ideas about how, you know, we needed the

Chris DuBois23:06

Yeah, that's

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency23:18

company needed to be steer and it like erupted into you know a a very difficult situation you know in retrospect obviously you know you you should figure out these things early the things like ownership and and like roles and investment and like You know, we did always talk a lot a lot about those things and we had things written down, but I think that there maybe because we were brothers, there were a lot of things we also kind of didn't talk and maybe secretly thought and held back for a long time. And when they finally came out, it was like kind of an eruption. So I would be careful, like me and my brother like were sort of famously known as always getting along amazingly well. Like people are like, how Why do you guys spend so much time together? you know, like we've lived in the same house together, we've played in bands together, but it was it was the agency that like almost blew things up. So yeah, be careful.

Chris DuBois24:22

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I don't think people realize the like how charged agency life can get. Where I I've told the story on the podcast before, but like when I I was active duty in the army for seven years as an infantry officer, and at no point in my career did I feel burnout ever. and I mean like not sleeping for, you know, more than a couple hours a night for like weeks, eating, you know, maybe one MRE a day, like going through all the crazy stuff you hear and all the stories. And and it was working at an agency where I would finish on a Friday and be like, I just need to like stare at the ceiling for a bit. I can't do anything. crazy.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency25:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it can be a rough ride. And you know, like it's I think that it's good for people to remember, you know, remember that they've taken on such a you know, like this is yes, it's a like, you know, working in the creative agents creative industry is amazing and it's and it's exciting, but like, yeah, take care of your mental health, you know, give you know, I I think that also. One of the things that I've been really careful about since I've been working on my own is like who I work with, you know, like the clients I work with, like be very, you know, don't don't get too excited by the dollar number, you know, like ask yourself, like, can I can this person be in my life for the next two years? You know? Like I think that you know, that's where a lot of my burnout came from is is that we were sort of a roller coaster agency, feast or famine. You know, we get a ton of work.

Chris DuBois25:39

Mm-hmm.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency26:03

more work than we could possibly get done. And we just take it all. And then we'd end up with, you know, these horrible client relationships some s sometimes that would just d drag us through the dirt. And and I yeah, I mean that's one of the things where I'm kind of like, I don't like we need to change how the agency works because I can't do this anymore. and sometimes it's hard, you know, I mean I think that everyone has a different perspective about

Chris DuBois26:24

Mm. Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency26:32

you know, like what success is and and you know, sometimes getting, you know, a bit getting a bunch of new work when you've been scraping by for a couple of months is is like it feels like a lifeboat. But I think that, you know, like for peace of mind, having good clients is super important.

Chris DuBois26:52

Yep. Yeah, especially if you're gonna run it. I mean, most of the clients I work with are fall into that. And then it's usually because they're very referral driven. And so it's like w one client might bring you three leads and they all close like this month, but you don't have any of your own marketing going. So it's like, what do we do till then? But you're so busy in delivery that

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency27:00

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency27:09

Yeah. Well, and I I think one of the one of the issues that we had at Murmur was my fault because as an SEO person, I was like, we'll just make the leads come to us. So like I, you know, over 10 years did all this great SEO work. So we had client, you know, like we had sometimes five to seven, you know, leads coming in a week that were just cold. So, you know, that is a hard like bridge to cross. When they don't know who you are, you know, they don't know if you're worth it, you know, like they want you to prove yourself to them. so we always had to cross this sort of look like long bridge to get to to get to a signed client. And sometimes you forget that like you need to be betting them as well.

Chris DuBois27:54

Yeah. Right. yeah, and there's definitely like power in that. Like when you can go who was it? Who was I talking to? actually, well, separate one. Carl Smith, from Bureau, had when I had him on the podcast and he was talking about how they used to have their their clients or prospects pitch them and they would basically say, like, no, tell us why we should work with you. And then s if someone on my team is like, Yeah, that sounds awesome.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency28:09

Yeah.

Chris DuBois28:24

I'm putting them on your account because now you're getting paired up with someone who's like excited to work with you. and like we've got a better match and it's great. and that I mean he sounded like it worked awesome. until he said he did say like come bigger company like Microsoft and like all the you know, the bigger companies are like, I'm not pitching you, like that's not how this works. but yeah, you can

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency28:28

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency28:40

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency28:45

But relation relationship is what is is the actual measure of success with an agency. And I think that, you know, like nobody comes into an they they they go to an agency and they like, I want more traffic, I want more sales, I want, you know, this or that. And they don't realize that like it's how well you work together and think together that actually determines your success. It's it you know, like if you come to some agency and you're like, I need to double this number. You know, like it's not gonna work out.

Chris DuBois29:15

Yep. No, a hundred percent. I had one client who like they were emerging market. We were struggling. It was like months of just like we could not get them results. And so I finally came to them and just apologized. And we need to find you guys a different agency. Like I just don't know. and they they actually said, Well, no, we know if we started with someone else, we'd be restarting. Like we trust you're doing everything, like we like you, we want to keep working with you. And a couple of months later, it took off and like everything finally started working. And it was just like, like

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency29:37

Mm-hmm.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency29:40

Yeah.

Chris DuBois29:44

If we didn't have that relationship, this would have just crumbled like they would that business probably would have failed. and so yeah, I think the relationship piece goes a lot further than people would normally give it credit for

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency29:49

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency29:54

Yeah, I have a I have a corporate client that I work with with for on SEO for like two years. And it was like I was sweating the whole time because it took two years to get to where we needed to go. And it, you know, like I felt like I was constantly had to prove my value to a certain extent because like the numbers weren't moving. But I was always like, guys, we're gonna get there. Like we're doing all the right stuff. It's gonna happen. but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen in six months. It never happens in six months, you know? Like I know.

Chris DuBois30:26

No matter how much we wanted to. What what would you say is the was the biggest surprise, I guess, moving from like just agency life to running your own consultancy as far as marketing, just get finding clients, working with clients, like what was the the surprising factor there?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency30:48

Well, I think that the the hard thing for me is I got into the same trap that a lot of people get into with which is like, I need to do this thing. actually I need to do this thing. Maybe I should be running PPC ads, you know, like stuff that I've advised people not to do. But like, but because I was just starting out, I was like, and I needed clients. I mean, I needed clients like tomorrow. Tomorrow, you know, to pay my mortgage. So I was just like desperate. that desperation place is not a great place to start a business. Like, I made some, I did some pretty kind of like things that I'm a little bit embarrassed about now that maybe seemed a little desperate, like posts on social media and then and groups and stuff where I'm like, my God, I sounded desperate. I think that I think that the it's the same advice, like you're not gonna get there in six months. You know, I was trying to get there in six months. I was like, I can do it, I'm an expert, you know? and maybe I would have I got a there a little bit faster because I've been doing it for twenty years, but like it still takes time.

Chris DuBois31:58

Yeah. I yeah, I think it was nine months of grinding on my own before I got like started actually getting business that was just coming to me from my marketing and it was like, man, there was definitely some some LinkedIn job searches during that period when like like maybe I could do that job.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency32:13

Yeah. yeah. And that I mean the the distractions too when you're having that sort of anxiety because I did like I I s every you know like I think about once a month in the first like four months I did send out like an application somewhere. I'm like, what am I doing? Like take you know, like take this resume that I've like barely spent any time on and add it to your stack of 500.

Chris DuBois32:31

Yeah, sure.

Chris DuBois32:37

Yeah. yeah, glad those days are behind. but who knows, I guess we'll see what happens with the future of agencies, right?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency32:46

Yeah, I know. I know.

Chris DuBois32:49

So I guess let's what's like the the eighty twenty that like if you were if you were to start over on your own consultancy and go through like the stuff, what what made the most impact to be able to get you to this point?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency33:07

that's a good question. I think that I think that, you know, trust is so premium right now. I think that, you know, getting, you know, reviews and testimonials and you know, leveraging like, you know, I made a choice at one point, like my website didn't have a picture of me on it. And I didn't want to. I wanted it to be cool. I didn't want a picture of a 49-year-old guy, you know, in his gray beard on the front. I w I wanted it to look awesome. And eventually I was just like, Chris, like what are you selling? It's you, you know, like put a picture of yourself on there, you know, like show show what the experience is gonna be like, get testimonials from your clients so they can talk about what the experience is like. I think that building those trust signals is so important. And especially now when it's so easy to create something kind of cool and flashy and fancy and animated, like you gotta show what you're selling and you gotta, you know, a lot of times show yourself. And I think that You know, the more that you can do that and the more that you can get your your clients to stand up for you and and even just educate your clients and the people that do you have connections with about like, hey, like Chris is looking for clients. Do you know anybody who, you know, needs SEO help or marketing help? And I think that I've, you know.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency34:45

At my last agency, we didn't have a lot of referrals. It was a lot of agencies, you know, people finding us in search and stuff like that. And now I am relying more on referrals. People like, I work with Chris and it's awesome. You should go work with him. You should contact him. So I think that, you know, really leaning into the people aspect, even more than I actually did, probably would have gotten me here a little bit quicker.

Chris DuBois35:09

Hmm. Yeah, that's a it is I think it's hard for a lot of like new agencies to be able to pull like that talent lever for their differentiators. but like w with the amount of experience you have and you know, people who similarly who've run agencies who understand the ins and outs and have learned those hard lessons already, and now you're doing something different. It's like it it's like it's a risk reduction, right? You're mitigating risk for the buyer by

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency35:20

Mm-hmm.

Chris DuBois35:38

showing everything you're capable of. So make does make an easier buying decision.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency35:40

Right. And I think even with less experience, I mean, you know, we're in a transition time and and when, you know, like twenty years ago we were starting Murmur Creative, The way that we got started is that there were all these people who had sort of become disillusioned with their agencies, were in an economic downturn and they were looking for more affordable people to work with that had talent but maybe didn't know what they were doing business wise. And that's, you know, that's how we got our first clients. people who wanted to take a risk on some young people that, you know, were maybe into doing exciting things. so I think that, you know, you don't always need to have expertise. I think that You know, especially in this area, you have to be honest and and you have to show people who you are and what you can do as much as possible.

Chris DuBois36:30

Yeah. Yep. All right. With that, I got two questions as we we wind down here. with first one being what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency36:37

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency36:41

Yeah, so I'm gonna recommend this book that I haven't read yet because it just came out. And I follow this fellow. get his name, pronounce it right, but his name is Nick Rickme Nick Ricksmeyer, and he has a book called The Damn Rules How Vulnerability, Inefficiency, and Love Liberate Leaders from a Trustbroken Economy. And I've been following, I know a lot of the ideas that are in the book because I've been following him forever and listen to his podcast. he is very I I told him the other day on LinkedIn that he was like the the Holden Caulfield of marketing because he's very much like, you know, like this is phony, this is phony, this is phony, this is real, you know. And his book is actually already picking up a bunch of attention on Amazon because I think that that's what It's focused on is on is like we need to cut through all the BS and talk about how we're actually going to grow companies in this new era and how important trust is. And, you know, like you can't, you know, all these old, you know, all these things are sort of like retiring as like the center of what marketing is, you know, like website analytics and you know, your your cost per click and your conversion rate and all these things that were like the holy grail for the longest time are getting demoted because we don't know anymore. And we didn't really ever know, to be honest, statistics are never really correct, absolutely. but there it's being revealed that like, you know, marketing is is kind of always been like smart people get in a room together and do their best. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And like it's You can you can pour data and stats and stuff down clients' throats, but it doesn't matter as much as we used to pretend it mattered.

Chris DuBois38:44

Yeah. No, man. that was well said. Like I've always I've always seen marketing, it's just it's our best guess. And we're gonna test it and we're gonna see what works. But like at the end of the day, we're guessing. And so hopefully you find someone who can take a more educated guess than someone else, but

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency38:48

Ha ha ha. Yep.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency38:55

Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency39:00

Yeah, and it yeah, I'm surbo I'm guessing that that's what some of the book is about, but I haven't read it. But I will. And I think that he's he's a great fellow and and he has some he's very smart and well read. So I'm sure it's gonna be a great book, The Damn Rules.

Chris DuBois39:15

Awesome. right, Chris, where can people find you?

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency39:20

god, so many places online. This is the fault of being an SEO person, but so diviner.agency is my agency. Diviner1.com is my platform for marketing. And my newest project, which I'm having the most fun with with right now, is called crystal.dev, and it's a platform for running AI agents like Claude.

Chris DuBois39:43

Awesome. All right. I feel like this has been a long time coming just from like following you on LinkedIn and stuff. So I'm glad we we finally made this work. Yeah.

Chris Bolton - Diviner.agency39:50

Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so great to meet you. And it's awesome talking. And I yeah, I'm glad that we got time to chat for sure, finally.

Chris DuBois40:00

Yeah. Awesome. Well thanks again for joining.